Driving Performance Season 2

Tom Shea [00:00:14]:

Welcome to driving performance. I'm your host, Tom Shea, the co founder of Adgile Media Group. Today we're joined by Anouck Gotlib and Noah Wunsch.

Noah Wunsch [00:00:25]:

So.

Tom Shea [00:00:25]:

Anouck is the CEO of Belgian Boys. They're on a mission to create whole ingredient foods with European twists so families can prepare less, smile more, and indulge better. They're in the business of fun and offer their delicious products in over 7000 stores and online. Anouck leads a passionate team dedicated to growing more than just a revenue driven business, creating joy for customers, bringing sweetness in people's lives. Belgian Boys is without question a company with happiness baked in. And Noah Wunsch is the founder of Ruby. The line of drinks is a refreshing option that sits between the description of functional water and plant water. It is the first hibiscus only hibiscus water and delivers great health and taste components. Guys. Welcome to driving performance.

Anouck Gotlib [00:01:07]:

This is so fun!

Noah Wunsch [00:01:08]:

Yeah.

Tom Shea [00:01:09]:

So I start off with the same question every time, because a lot of people are going to be on audio only when they're listening in. What the hell is going on right now? How would you describe this situation?

Anouck Gotlib [00:01:20]:

Well, we're in this glass box, which I've never sat in one. There's, like, Nathan's hot dog stand, yellow Cab, and the whole city is here, so it's quite hard to describe. Right.

Noah Wunsch [00:01:35]:

I honestly, when you asked what the hell was going on, I thought you meant from, like, a global macroeconomic perspective. And I was going to be like, not a lot of good things. Yeah, it's not good right now. We're just talking about world peace beforehand. Good.

Tom Shea [00:01:46]:

It's not there, right?

Noah Wunsch [00:01:47]:

Yeah, I'd say. Anouck, you described it.

Tom Shea [00:01:51]:

All right. So, Anouck, Noah, do you guys know each other? I know you do. How do you know each other? Is there a story there? So take us back to how you guys met, if you remember how you met.

Noah Wunsch [00:02:01]:

Nook, remembers better. I remember the Tidbits after, but she immediately was able to call who introduced us. So I'm going to let you start it off.

Anouck Gotlib [00:02:08]:

Okay. I had to think really back, but actually it's my friend Jessica. We'll give a shout out to Jess. Jess from Kimai. She has a lab grown jewelry brand. She's amazing. And she introduced us, and it was in the pandemic.

Tom Shea [00:02:23]:

Okay.

Anouck Gotlib [00:02:23]:

And we had coffee. Another shout out. Blank Street.

Tom Shea [00:02:26]:

It was a phone call.

Anouck Gotlib [00:02:27]:

I was unloading my no, wait, we have a phone call. He's like, driving this car, and I see, like, 25 cases back, and he's like, Let me pull over for a SEC.

Tom Shea [00:02:38]:

And nothing's changed, right? You're still doing that.

Noah Wunsch [00:02:40]:

Unfortunately, nothing has changed. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Anouck Gotlib [00:02:45]:

Tom, I think you were on the way to, like, I don't know, Whole.

Noah Wunsch [00:02:48]:

Foods or we were pre launching.

Anouck Gotlib [00:02:50]:

That was pre launched.

Noah Wunsch [00:02:51]:

So we were going to the warehouse.

Anouck Gotlib [00:02:52]:

To the warehouse, yeah.

Noah Wunsch [00:02:53]:

And I was literally like, I was calling you to be, so tell me how I do this.

Tom Shea [00:02:57]:

And she did great. It's working great.

Anouck Gotlib [00:03:01]:

And then we went to grab coffee and then friends ever since. Friends?

Noah Wunsch [00:03:07]:

Yeah.

Tom Shea [00:03:07]:

Awesome. So there's going to be a few stops on this route as we are in a truck. So stop one is going to be sort of origin founder stories. Stop two is going to be some brand specific questions that I prepared for each of you, sort of round robin style. And then stop three is going to be sort of like thoughtful brand intersection questions, things that, as we're doing some research, you guys might have the same take on, different takes on, but a question that can be asked of both of you at once. Then segment four, stop four is what we're calling the hot box, and I'll leave that one unknown for now for the audience. Then stop five is the literal end where we get off the truck. So stop one, origin stories. And I want to start with Noah, and I sort of want to, I don't know, take the proverbial red pill and go down the rabbit hole. It's the red pill, blue pill.

Noah Wunsch [00:03:59]:

I think it's the red pill. We try to figure that out before this. Okay, got it.

Tom Shea [00:04:05]:

From the beginning. Who is Noah? What sort of early experiences shaped Noah, and how and why was Ruby launched?

Noah Wunsch [00:04:12]:

Oh, man. It's a big question. Yeah, sorry.

Tom Shea [00:04:14]:

I know that got a little profound pretty quickly.

Noah Wunsch [00:04:16]:

I also feel like we do have to kind of start off by saying that when we say red pill, we don't mean it in the super right conservative mentality. I think it's important.

Tom Shea [00:04:25]:

They should have picked different colors.

Noah Wunsch [00:04:27]:

It might have been better pink or ruby. Ruby and pink would have been great.

Anouck Gotlib [00:04:31]:

Yes.

Noah Wunsch [00:04:32]:

I'm a born and raised New Yorker, so I'm glad to be in this truck in New York City.

Tom Shea [00:04:36]:

Feels pretty authentic.

Noah Wunsch [00:04:37]:

It feels extremely authentic. I grew up downtown, so a lot of just downtown went into Ruby. That all just got infused into this weird little brand universe that we've built. But professionally, I don't have any through line to my professional career, which is what I like. I started in media at the Paris Review, running business development for them. Before that, I was in editorial. After that, I was in fashion media. After that, I was in startup tech. After that, I was at Sotheby's, which makes me sound a lot older than I am, but it just means I was just, like, a really add kid. Every six months, I was like, change my job.

Tom Shea [00:05:16]:

That's, like, status quo now, too.

Noah Wunsch [00:05:18]:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Tom Shea [00:05:19]:

People, if you're over there for, like, two years in corporate America, you're sort of like a dinosaur.

Noah Wunsch [00:05:23]:

You can tell when people start losing their edge, when you're like, I don't know if you're as into this as you used to be, because you get a little tie tie. But yeah, it was at sotheby's that I started making it hibiscus at home for me and my wife because I realized everything I was drinking was full of sugar. So I wanted to have something that was very flavorful but didn't have so much sugar in it. And Hibiscus does that.

Tom Shea [00:05:46]:

Did you have a specific crutch that.

Noah Wunsch [00:05:48]:

You know, a million crutches? You mean like sugar crutches? Yeah, all of them. I have a terrible sweet tooth, though. I have a very good diet.

Tom Shea [00:05:57]:

Right.

Noah Wunsch [00:05:58]:

But there was a moment, and this is like a shout out to Halle Meyer over at Cafe Pana. I became addicted to her ice cream. Like, it was an actual problem. I remember one specific day where we're.

Tom Shea [00:06:11]:

Shouting her out.

Noah Wunsch [00:06:13]:

We'Re addicted to it because was the greatest ice cream in the world. But I woke up, and this is like every night I would stop by with Kelly and be like, should we get some pints tonight? Don't we have three pints in the fridge? And I'd be like, yeah, but there are new pints every day. We don't want to miss it.

Tom Shea [00:06:26]:

Is that what they did? Like, different drops?

Noah Wunsch [00:06:27]:

Yeah, they do different drops. Every creamiest. Ice cream. But Kelly was out of town. Okay, so Kelly left me alone with pints of ice cream.

Anouck Gotlib [00:06:35]:

Dangerous.

Noah Wunsch [00:06:36]:

Dangerous. And I woke up in the morning, and I was like, little espresso and ice cream for breakfast? That sounds nice. Let's do that. That seems, like pretty European. And I was like, cool. Then I had lunch. Yeah, then I had lunch with some friends, and all I could think about during the lunch was how I needed to have ice cream after it. So I went home and I had more ice cream, and I was like, well, that's it for me, then. I'm not going to have dinner. I'm not going to have anything. Then I went to dinner, and afterwards, all I could think of was like, well, you've already gone this far, so I had more ice cream after it, and I got sicker than I've ever been in my life, which is not Halle's fault. It's my own fault because I ate far too much ice cream. Yeah, but that's just an example of, like, this is why I had to get off sugar. I can go down the rabbit hole. So Hibiscus helped me get off all that sugar. And that's the origin of Ruby.

Tom Shea [00:07:27]:

Yeah.

Noah Wunsch [00:07:29]:

Why Hibiscus?

Tom Shea [00:07:30]:

I think it's really interesting you talk about its tartness, but its ability to have that sweet finish. And so that is like the catalyst. Can you speak on that a little bit?

Noah Wunsch [00:07:40]:

Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing is if you literally search the definition of sour versus tart. Tart is defined by having just a little bit of sweetness to it. That's the only difference between sour and tart. The tartness for me became way more addicting than the sweetness that I was used to. So I just started craving the tart more than the sweet. And then I started researching Hibiscus and found out about all the amazing functional benefits. It's full of antioxidants. It's full of electrolytes, full of vitamins. So here we had this ingredient that had functional benefits. There we go. Take a sip. That had functional benefits, had big flavor, and had white space in a category. The category hadn't been built or developed. And Hibiscus has a search trend. Literally, just using Google Trend Search, you'll see hockey stick growth for people searching for Hibiscus. So it took me 18 months to convince myself to do this. I was like, I don't need to start a beverage company.

Tom Shea [00:08:34]:

And what was your wife think through all this?

Noah Wunsch [00:08:36]:

My wife's the best woman in the entire universe.

Anouck Gotlib [00:08:38]:

She's amazing.

Noah Wunsch [00:08:39]:

Yeah, she's the greatest and pleasant company excuse.

Tom Shea [00:08:43]:

Should we just, like, get her?

Noah Wunsch [00:08:45]:

You honestly should. Kelly's way cooler than I am. Kelly's just the most supportive, wonderful human in the world. I wish she wasn't. In retrospect. I wish she was like, maybe this is a dumb idea, Noah. Maybe you want to think about this a little. She was like, no, this is I love the beverage. Let's do yeah, she's she's the best.

Tom Shea [00:09:04]:

And then real quick, before we get to Anouck talk about the branding, I think there's a pretty fun story with Maury Talmer and the original renditions and things like that. So you take us through the evolutions, I guess many of guess. Was it before you went to market.

Noah Wunsch [00:09:21]:

Or during yeah, before. We've gone through a lot of design duration, but for if you want to just zoom in on that camp available everywhere now. But we started in a glass bottle. We were a still product to begin with.

Tom Shea [00:09:35]:

We started in a glass.

Noah Wunsch [00:09:37]:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I started working with Maury Talmore, who I've known forever. When I was in fashion media, I worked for this very cool downtown magazine called Bullet. And Maury was, like, the creative genius of Bullet, and he's also a very Zen dude. You can have very cerebral conversations with Maury, which is why I love him. So as soon as I knew I was doing Ruby, I was like, Maury, you're my guy. And we went through really intense sessions, first with the name Iggy. And that didn't work out because Iggy's Honey Brew Kombucha has the trademark on Iggy's. Shout out to Iggy's Honeybrew Kambucha. They're just shouting out.

Anouck Gotlib [00:10:20]:

It also rhymes to siggies.

Noah Wunsch [00:10:21]:

Yeah, it did rhyme with siggies.

Tom Shea [00:10:23]:

Was that intentional?

Noah Wunsch [00:10:26]:

No, it was brought up it was for Iggy Pop. I love iggy pop dead ass. Yeah. Seriously, the essence of the brand. I was like, I want it to feel like Iggy Pop. Fall in Love With Me by Iggy Pop is, like, one of my favorite songs of all time. But, yeah, that didn't work out. But they'd done all this work on Iggy. So we had to pivot to Ruby, which totally makes way more sense for a million reasons. But the brand brief I had given him as that downtown New Yorker who worked in fashion and sotheby's asshole, was like, I want this to be subversive. I want it to be cool. I want to be downtown. I want to be like the Dover Street market of beverage brands. And they were like, Are you sure? And I was like, yeah, I'm sure. And I remember Maury, he went into his creative hole for, like, six weeks, and he came out with this design, and he was like, I'm ready to show it to you. He showed it to me, and it was awful. He had given me exactly what I asked for. It was super cool. Was it super subversive?

Tom Shea [00:11:31]:

When you say awful, is it like, describe that a little bit. I haven't seen it. So I'm curious.

Noah Wunsch [00:11:38]:

Way back when we posted, way back when it was just and by the way, it got a lot of likes, and Maury was like, See? It could have worked. But it was, like, ultra minimalist. It looked kind of, like, probably what was going on in hip hop albums at the time, but the branding was tiny on it. It was hard to read things. It almost had this weird the only way I could put it is, like, underground pizza aesthetic. Like, if there was, like, a dope pizza shop I can't wait to add.

Tom Shea [00:12:10]:

That into the podcast where it just flash frames.

Noah Wunsch [00:12:14]:

We'll give you the image of it. You can see what it looks like. If there was, like, a sick pizza spot that was like, a speakeasy pizza shop in New York City, that version of you guys want to quit our.

Tom Shea [00:12:27]:

Jobs and just open that.

Noah Wunsch [00:12:29]:

I'm looking for any out. Ruby would have been served there.

Tom Shea [00:12:34]:

Got it.

Anouck Gotlib [00:12:34]:

For sure.

Noah Wunsch [00:12:37]:

The old design. I mean, the new design, too, but in a different way. So I had an existential crisis and breakdown from that, as one does. Yeah. Fully went into just, like, a black hole and emerged the phoenix from the ashes and realized that, again, the point of the brand isn't exclusivity. It's accessibility.

Tom Shea [00:13:01]:

Right. Designed for a bigger tan.

Noah Wunsch [00:13:05]:

Yeah. Something that feels friendly.

Tom Shea [00:13:07]:

Right.

Noah Wunsch [00:13:07]:

And you can be cool. You can be cool and accessible. That's what Nike does. It's aspirational accessibility.

Tom Shea [00:13:13]:

Absolutely.

Noah Wunsch [00:13:14]:

Or accessible aspiration so we just went back to the drawing board with the word friendly, and that changed everything. And then there's the Ruby verse. But that's a whole other yeah, we'll get there, man.

Tom Shea [00:13:27]:

And did Maury do the second iteration as well?

Noah Wunsch [00:13:30]:

He did, yeah. But we also worked with an amazing illustrator, Robert Beatty, on that.

Tom Shea [00:13:33]:

Okay.

Noah Wunsch [00:13:34]:

And Robert is known for his work doing album covers, so he did the album cover for Tame Impala.

Tom Shea [00:13:40]:

Oh, wow.

Noah Wunsch [00:13:40]:

That's a My Morning Jacket and the weeknd.

Tom Shea [00:13:43]:

Damn.

Noah Wunsch [00:13:43]:

Yeah.

Tom Shea [00:13:44]:

That's sick. I didn't know that fact.

Noah Wunsch [00:13:46]:

That's cool.

Anouck Gotlib [00:13:47]:

I think it's so interesting also, because if you think about it, as founders, you always tend to complicate things. I remember also by us in the beginning, you're like, it needs to be cool. It needs to be this, it needs to be that, and you think about yourself and not about the consumer, and then you're like, well, how would somebody think about it? When you see it in, like, a whole foods or in a target and putting that consumer eyes on it, you're not the consumer. It doesn't need to be cool for you.

Tom Shea [00:14:17]:

It needs yeah, you're so right.

Anouck Gotlib [00:14:21]:

For your audience.

Tom Shea [00:14:21]:

I think I'm very active on CPG, twitter and stuff, and I think there are some of those echo chambers of people. Like, this is cool for our small, little group. When you're in consumer, where we're literally like a drop in the bucket in terms of if you're going to try to make a big business, you need to go mass market, and you sort of need to get out of your own lens and get into the consumer lens. So I think you're absolutely right. But, yeah, no, I've always thought this is one of the most unique products in, honestly, like, a very crowded space, but I've never had anything like it, and I think it's incredibly well made. Not from a branding perspective, but there's almost, like, brand in the liquid color to me, where it's so unique and just not like anything else I've had. So an awesome product, but I want to switch gears to a no. We should.

Noah Wunsch [00:15:14]:

Yeah.

Tom Shea [00:15:15]:

Belgian boys has one of the most incredible origin stories that's adorable dates back to a plane ride. And I got to be honest, listening to it, it almost feels like it could be turned into a movie. There's elements of romance, nostalgia, hard work, paying off, and hopefully continuing to pay off. But before we even get there, let's start from the beginning. What were you doing before Belgian boys, and can you tell us about how that plane ride, I think for, like, a job in the fashion industry has led to Belgian boys at 7000 plus doors.

Anouck Gotlib [00:15:48]:

Well, I like that movie. Maybe one day we can make that come true.

Tom Shea [00:15:51]:

We have the crew right here.

Anouck Gotlib [00:15:54]:

It's called the wedding singer.

Noah Wunsch [00:15:56]:

We already saw it. The wedding singer. Greg had the guitar. It was a good vibe. Were you there? I wish.

Tom Shea [00:16:04]:

It's like, damn, you have better friends than I thought.

Anouck Gotlib [00:16:07]:

Well, I mean, I'm from Belgium. You hear it from my accent, right? I'm not a born and raised New yorker. I love New York. I live here now, and, I mean, New York, for me, was like the American dream. I grew up watching friends, and that was a cool thing, right? So, living in a small town in small town city in Belgium, in Antwerp, my passion was fashion. I love fashion. Design. I grew up in that world, and I went for college in fashion design. And then I came for an internship to New York City. I was like, the dream. Yeah. I was 21 years old, super excited to be a fashion designer. I worked at Zach Posen, Donna Morgan, and I met a guy on a plane. So Greg and I knew of each other because we're both from the same city in Antwerp, and there was same community, but we didn't know each other, so we did for five years. So when he went to Boston to college, I was, like, 13 years old. I was like a kid, and we recognized each other on the plane. I'm going to tell you my version.

Tom Shea [00:17:18]:

I'm sure we'll have to get him on and let him sling it.

Anouck Gotlib [00:17:21]:

Well, he's like, oh, cute girl. My version, I met him on the plane, and he wanted to start his company because basically after college, in college, he was just schlapping suitcases with his waffles that he loved for himself to enjoy. The cookies, the waffle, the treat.

Noah Wunsch [00:17:41]:

Yeah.

Tom Shea [00:17:42]:

Taste of home.

Anouck Gotlib [00:17:43]:

And the American friends, like, in the dorms were like, oh, my God, this is so freaking good.

Tom Shea [00:17:47]:

Like, I was bringing bagels to literally anywhere, right?

Anouck Gotlib [00:17:50]:

And it's like, well, now I bring bagels back to, yeah, I don't blame you. And it's like, this is good. Where can we buy it? And you couldn't find it in the US. All these treats, this quality, like, the know in Europe, it's like, the more butter, the better. And it just makes you happy. And maybe I should start a company and do this. So he's telling me that I'm just like, well, not far from here, 42nd street and 7th Avenue. And at night, helping my boyfriend, to my words, design clothes for the waffles. Because I'm like, can't just put a waffle in a wrapper on the shelf. And so we're like, let's make it look good. It's america. Hollywood. You got to tell a story. People want to know what it's all about, not only the product that it is. And that's what we did. And that's how Belgium boys was born. I was just helping my fiance boyfriend, who then became my fiance. And then, honestly, fashion was just super toxic of a world. It's like I was working, I think, eight to eight, being treated fashion. You're kind of disposable. I picked up dog poop. Yeah, I inventorized buttons. Like, you can't got a big, big bucket. And inventorized not as glamorous as that.

Tom Shea [00:19:19]:

21 year old had in her head, I'm sure.

Anouck Gotlib [00:19:23]:

One story. I was in Belgium in fashion. It was the designer for the royal family. And the queen now was back then, the princess. And so she was coming every month to her wardrobe, and I was there behind the scenes, just like and she was hungry, and so she needed a salad. So I go get a salad.

Noah Wunsch [00:19:47]:

No.

Anouck Gotlib [00:19:47]:

Can you get a salad? I'm like, sure, I'll get a salad. Which salad? Whatever. And it was, like, literally, like, on the block, and I get the salad, and literally ten times they go, Where's the salad?

Noah Wunsch [00:19:57]:

I'm coming.

Anouck Gotlib [00:19:58]:

And I'm like, running in the middle of Brussels with the salad for the princess anyway. But yeah, so that was my fashion background. I loved what I did. I really enjoyed what I did, designing the creativity, but I didn't like the industry. It was so toxic. And that's also, I think, when I left Greg's, like, why don't you do this with me? I'm like, I don't know. With my fiance working with family, it's like, this is quite important for me, this relationship. And we said, let's give it a try. And honestly, for me, it was like, well, if we do this, let's make it into a happy thing, like, somewhere where I can come and enjoy, have fun. I mean, we're going to make waffles and pancakes and cookies. Like, if we can have fun and make it happy, there's a problem. And actually, happiness and sparking those moments of joy has become our mission. That's our why. That's the reason for being because life's hard. A cookie doesn't have to.

Tom Shea [00:21:00]:

Talk. It's interesting, right? There's actually a bunch of people in business together as family. And so Kim and Vanessa from amsom. Chris and Greg from CrossNet. So you have one. It's, I think from a public perception, it's a counterculture take, but it's funny. That seems to work so well. Talk about working with your husband, because you have a really, I don't know, beautiful take on why it works.

Anouck Gotlib [00:21:26]:

Yes. I mean, listen, obviously it's like, you work with your husband. It's not always scream, we get upset, but I think in the beginning, actually, we were doing everything together. Like, check this email. What do you think of this? What do you think of that? And I think then you get on each other's nerves. And we got into a point that it was hard to have a conversation about a business until we actually gotten my brother tricked me into a session with it was in the middle of the pandemic. I told you this story, right? And my brother tricked me into a session with a mindfulness coach, both of us. So it's corporate mindfulness together. He said, yeah, you need to talk to somebody about your business. It was a Sunday morning. My brother's like, I'll watch the kids. That's weird.

Tom Shea [00:22:14]:

Yeah. Red flags going off everywhere.

Anouck Gotlib [00:22:15]:

And so we go on the call and like, hi. So this is Belgium boys. And she's like, Talk to me about you. I'm like, what the hell is going on here?

Tom Shea [00:22:26]:

Were you getting ready to pitch?

Anouck Gotlib [00:22:27]:

Yeah, I was like, Belgium boys and waffles and cookies. Anyway, it changed our life. Like, bringing mindfulness into our life has changed everything. And it's that moment in time that I understood that out of everyone in the world, greg is the person I trust the most. He's my person. And we might not make the same decision. We might not agree on what is right, but I trust him to make the decision for the right reasons, because we have the same vision of what success and what it is that we want to do in life. Our goals in life and our goals in business are aligned. And I think that you don't always have that with other co founder dynamics at every point in time, because I would say other co founders started in the dorms. Like, two friends. One goes and gets married. There's kids. The other one is a bachelor, works very hard, and priorities shift. And with Greg, and, like, we know our kids are part of the business. The kids think their last name is Belgium boy, it's like, the funniest. It's weird, but it's a part of who we are. I mean, I wear pink all the time because I love it because it makes people smile.

Noah Wunsch [00:23:44]:

Yeah, it does.

Tom Shea [00:23:44]:

And it looks great on shelf, too, which is a nice side part. But the characters have names, right?

Anouck Gotlib [00:23:49]:

The characters do have names. So that's chubby and that's skinny. That's Greg, actually. So it's two friends. Greg started the business with a friend. We love him. He is now less involved with the business. And I took over because behind boys, there's a girl.

Tom Shea [00:24:12]:

Did you name your kids after the I didn't.

Anouck Gotlib [00:24:15]:

But, you know, why characters. So a lot of people ask us why characters.

Tom Shea [00:24:19]:

Right.

Anouck Gotlib [00:24:20]:

And Belgium actually has a very big comic.

Tom Shea [00:24:25]:

Really? Okay.

Noah Wunsch [00:24:26]:

I didn't know that.

Anouck Gotlib [00:24:26]:

Tintin. He's Belgian. The smurfs are Belgian. So we grew up with, like the Smurfs are Belgium. I promise. Google.

Noah Wunsch [00:24:34]:

Oh, I believe it. I believe it. I'm just shocked.

Anouck Gotlib [00:24:36]:

Yeah. And Tintin.

Noah Wunsch [00:24:38]:

Tintin.

Anouck Gotlib [00:24:38]:

I'm Less shocked about yes, we grew up with that. It was really a part of our culture, and so when we did the logo, it was really clear to us that it would be a character that eventually we can also bring to.

Tom Shea [00:24:54]:

Are you I'm surprised you didn't have people at Expo West just in straight up handlebar mustaches running around with cool top hats.

Anouck Gotlib [00:25:02]:

Yeah. Well, next year, next season.

Noah Wunsch [00:25:06]:

I think your bright pink booth does the trick. I think that stands out better than, like, two dudes with handlebar mustaches.

Tom Shea [00:25:13]:

Yeah, they were like, oh, those are just guys from Brooklyn.

AD Break 1 [00:25:16]:

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Tom Shea:

So stop two on the route, brand specific questions, and no, I want to start with you and just go deeper down that rabbit hole that is the Ruby verse. All the sleuthing online stuff, it all feels like one crazy, fever dream, but in the best way possible. And you brought fun and, I think, unique branding to what's traditionally been, like, a really sleepy functional category. And the branding is unlike anything I've seen, as is the Ruby verse. And the thing that my mind goes to when I think functional is, like, soylent, which is like, I mean, you've seen that branding. It's the most minimalist or, like, when you think of a performance sneaker, it's like a picture and then all sorts of specs of all the performance stuff. And so you've been able to sort of merge those functional elements with fun without being, I don't know, extremely in your face about all those functional elements. So might be a little bit abstract and better after the hot box section, but can you describe what the Ruby verse is, and from a strategic perspective, why did you start the Ruby verse?

Noah Wunsch [00:27:08]:

Yeah.

Tom Shea [00:27:10]:

Are we in the Ruby verse?

Noah Wunsch [00:27:11]:

We're not in the Ruby verse, right?

Tom Shea [00:27:12]:

We're not, right?

Noah Wunsch [00:27:12]:

No. Right now we're in a truck. Okay. We're in a truck right now. But if you're drinking Ruby, a little bit of the Ruby verse is inside of you.

Tom Shea [00:27:20]:

Wow.

Noah Wunsch [00:27:20]:

Yeah. Which is nice, right? Yeah. So the Rubyverse, I always say that there's, like, the literal manifestation of the Rubyverse, which is a Sci-Fi universe that we created around Ruby. And Ruby is the weapon that is against the great manquisher of planets known as sugar. So the Ruby knots and all the creatures in there, like Zobo and all these creatures that we have created within the Rubyverse are trying to fight this evil being that is slowly going from planet to planet, killing people, which is a little darker when I it's an.

Tom Shea [00:27:57]:

Epidemic, to be honest.

Noah Wunsch [00:27:59]:

The whole thing is very sincerely with beverage. What I found that was frustrating for me is everything says better for you. And they're putting that on because of the functional benefits, which are there for the most part. In some cases, they're not. And they can make claims or they can get sued, but it's a dangerous thing to say better for you if you're really not better for you. We are living in a pandemic of our own where obesity and diabetes is rampaging the United States, and the key driver of overconsumption, of added sugar is beverage, period. Like, sugary drinks are driving the overconsumption way more.

Tom Shea [00:28:39]:

Like candy and stuff way more.

Noah Wunsch [00:28:41]:

I mean, it's wild when you. Look at the data, that 50% of what we are consuming that goes overboard on the added sugar side is beverage. So while it's dark that we're trying to fight the forces of sugar, we really are trying to. And the other part that a lot of people don't know about is the non nutritive sweeteners. A lot of people call those natural sweeteners, like monk fruit, monk fruit, erythritol, stevia. I think natural sweeteners is a dangerous thing to call them because it sounds organic and it's not. They're non nutritive sweeteners. I e. You get no nutrition from those sweeteners, period.

Tom Shea [00:29:22]:

And also, how long have we studied those? It's sort of like one of those limited sample set things where you might turn the page on the next generation, be like, oh, that was cigarettes.

Noah Wunsch [00:29:31]:

Oops. I'm not saying it's cigarettes by any means.

Tom Shea [00:29:36]:

Yeah.

Noah Wunsch [00:29:37]:

I am saying is like, what most people don't understand is the magnitude of sweetness on your palate for the non nutritive sweeteners is usually exponentially greater than organic cane sugar or fruit juice. So you can be like, oh, I feel great. I have stevia. And this is better for me because my body breaks it down in a different way. But the fact is, it's training your palate by being about 1000 times sweeter than sugar to want more sweet things. One of the things do either of you guys like hot sauce?

Tom Shea [00:30:07]:

Love it. Once you start going, you got I'm.

Noah Wunsch [00:30:10]:

Obsessed with hot sauce. Yeah, and it starts first, like you have a dab of Sriracha and you're like, oh my God, that's the spiciest thing ever.

Tom Shea [00:30:19]:

For my hot sauce.

Noah Wunsch [00:30:20]:

It's the same thing with sweetness, man. They're exactly the same thing. Your palate gets trained to crave these things and it dulls the effects the more you have it. So we're really trying to put out a product that has actual integrity and that really is better for you, that has the functional benefits. But I always like to say this, and it's the most important thing. We have the cleanest ingredients in organic functional soda, period. Compare us to anyone at the grocery store, literally. Like, take our panel, take someone else's panel. Usually there's a paragraph on the other one and there's like a line on ours. Yes.

Tom Shea [00:30:56]:

Legit. Just carbonated water, cherry juice, organic hibiscus flour, blueberry juice, four berry cherry.

Noah Wunsch [00:31:03]:

And that one has like the most ingredients because it's two juices.

Tom Shea [00:31:08]:

Right? Well, you went with berry cherry, cherry.

Noah Wunsch [00:31:13]:

And then there's the ruby verse, how we've built just like, the brand elements, the idea of allowing people into our universe. And we've created a bunch of rabbit holes. And I don't know how many people actually go down our rabbit holes, but what I always say at the end of the day is this is really hard. This is a very hard business. You said it yourself, Tom beverage is so freaking competitive.

Tom Shea [00:31:37]:

Totally.

Noah Wunsch [00:31:37]:

It's insane. So if we're not doing something that makes us happy and turns us on internally as a team, we're probably not going to have that much fun doing. So, like, there's a lot of stupid stuff we put out. I don't know how many people know about our intergalactic radio station, mom radio, mr. East of Matter Radio. But it's awesome that we did, and we did it like Jacques Green did our first episode. We had an amazing DJ. Sam Harris from the rock group Ex Ambassadors did an episode for us. We don't half ass when we put these. Like, we really commit to like we want to be a value add brand for our customers, but you have to work a little bit for so I don't know if it's or not, but we have fun with it.

Tom Shea [00:32:24]:

I love the Ruby verse. All right. And then sort of on the flip side, first off, Ruby and Belgian Boys, I think, are both functions of globalization, like, obviously from Belgium, but also where you're sourcing all of these natural ingredients. And Ruby's had a lot of success taking a futuristic angle, and yet Belgian Boys is sort of that intersection of nostalgia but modernization. And so it's very interesting. Obviously, they're both seemingly winning hands, but can you talk about nostalgia and sort of like, the evolution of the breakfast product as it pertains to Belgian?

Anouck Gotlib [00:33:03]:

Yes, definitely. I mean, nostalgia, it's such a big word. And I think when I came to the US. Like, nostalgia for me was Belgium, right? It was those Belgium treats. And I was like, when we launched A, like, people are going to buy that because they want to be remembered of the streets of Amsterdam when they traveled and they walked, and they had the Belgian waffle in Antwerp, in Brussels. And over the years, we've understood that our consumer, or most of our consumer, has never been to Belgium. Some of our.

Noah Wunsch [00:33:45]:

I thought it was great when Anouck was like, as you can tell from my accent, I'm from Belgium. It's like.

Anouck Gotlib [00:33:54]:

I'm not from here.

Noah Wunsch [00:33:58]:

Or.

Tom Shea [00:33:58]:

You'Re really good at faking it one or the other.

Anouck Gotlib [00:34:05]:

I could see that they didn't know where Belgium is. It wasn't relating to them. Right. And that nostalgia that I had, you couldn't beat that. You couldn't have that nostalgia. And so over the evolution over the years, what did our brand become? It's that comfort food. Why do people buy Belgian boys? Why do people buy our crepes, our pancake? Because it's just happiness. It's quick, easy, delicious, yummy, and you don't need to think about it. And then how do we get to breakfast? Think about it. Our target audience are Moms young families. I didn't grow up here, but I hear my generation grew up eating eggo waffles and Pop Tarts. Did you?

Tom Shea [00:34:49]:

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Noah Wunsch [00:34:50]:

Toaster, Strudel, all of the above.

Anouck Gotlib [00:34:52]:

Which was your favorite flavor? Pop Tarts.

Noah Wunsch [00:34:55]:

Pop Tarts. Probably the strawberry frost.

Tom Shea [00:34:57]:

Yeah, it was strawberry. It was definitely their best skew.

Anouck Gotlib [00:35:02]:

Well, do you still believe that today?

Tom Shea [00:35:04]:

What? No, I don't need that.

Noah Wunsch [00:35:05]:

No?

Anouck Gotlib [00:35:05]:

Okay. Would you want to give that to your kids?

Tom Shea [00:35:09]:

No shot.

Noah Wunsch [00:35:10]:

No.

Anouck Gotlib [00:35:10]:

Okay, so that's what we do, right? Our generation ate eggo waffles and Pop Tarts, but that's not what our generation will want to give our kids. We want to give them vengeance.

Tom Shea [00:35:20]:

Yeah, that's so true.

Anouck Gotlib [00:35:21]:

Think about it. That first hour in the day, I have two kids. Oh, my God, it's so freaking stressful because you have to get dressed. The kids have to get dressed. You're like, where's the backpack? I need to do the lunchbox. Something spills. What we have for breakfast is not something I want to think about. And I don't know what you both eat for breakfast in the morning, but it's probably a version of the same thing every single day. Totally, right? Unlike dinner or lunch, where you can go, monday, pasta, tuesday, tacos, wednesday, pizza. I don't know. You're not going to do Monday affaibol. Tuesday, pancake, wednesday, cereal streamline. Done. Right? It's the most habit driven meal of the day.

Noah Wunsch [00:36:07]:

So interesting.

Anouck Gotlib [00:36:08]:

And so we have the ability to really get into the consumer lives on a weekly basis and be that staple item in their refrigerator that just comes back. And that's really where we found our sweet spot to really be that solution for our consumer.

Tom Shea [00:36:29]:

Yeah. And I don't know if this was intentional design or you sort of walked into it, but you think of like LTV and stuff when people are so regimented in like a and honestly, probably the same with beverage, too, if I'm being honest, where you like something, you like it, you're not really deviating it from it, too.

Anouck Gotlib [00:36:44]:

And I think we have also our cookies. Our cookies play a different role in our assortment. Because even if you're very brand loyal, it's not like you're going to eat the same cookie every single day of your life, right? It's going to be in your pantry. You're going to want one time this brand. One time that brand. I crave like chocolate. I crave like raspberry or whatever.

Tom Shea [00:37:06]:

Totally.

Anouck Gotlib [00:37:06]:

But with our crepes pancakes, that's where the consumer you can also control you can't control your kid's day, but you can control that first hour of their day. And I want to make sure my kids with a smile, right?

Tom Shea [00:37:21]:

I love it.

Anouck Gotlib [00:37:22]:

And I'm able to and you got the sweets, too.

Tom Shea [00:37:25]:

You could get them later in the day, too. Put in the lunchbox.

Noah Wunsch [00:37:29]:

All right.

Tom Shea [00:37:29]:

No. So Jing Gao from Fly by Jenks, also on the show, she recently retired her frozen dumpling skew, and she did it in a pretty hilarious breakup post. We call it a conscious uncoupling, which I thought was hilarious, something like a celebrity PR agent would put out. But Ruby started as a still line of hibiscus water. And fast forward to today, you're discontinuing that line leaning further into functional, sparkling think. You know, it's a good lesson in consumer feedback and just following the data and obviously the leadership strength to make those decisions when you need to make them. But how'd you make those uncomfortable decisions, maybe it wasn't even that uncomfortable, to be honest. Maybe it was like a glaring one you were excited to make. But take us through what led to that decision.

Noah Wunsch [00:38:15]:

Yeah, I wasn't an uncomfortable one is the good news. You kind of brought this up before, where it's like, whether it's Twitter CPG or whether it's your friends or whether it's whoever, that represents a drop in the bucket of the opportunity that is mass at grocery. So you have to be hyper nimble, in my opinion. And iterate based on what they're telling you. Not only them, but the market at large too. Where's the growth coming from? Where's the opportunity? But we do a ton of field marketing. That's our number one marketing channel, period.

Tom Shea [00:38:50]:

We're going to get to that.

Noah Wunsch [00:38:52]:

I am a psychopath, very sincerely, but I don't tell people when I'm demoing that I'm the founder of the company because I want them to be honest with me, right? I don't say anything. They assume that I'm whatever I am, man. But then there are a few times I mean, some people have said some horrible things to me and I'm like, well, it's my company. And then they'll be like, oh, keep chugging, man. But again, consumers don't lie to you. They're going to tell you exactly what they think of your product, and it's up to you as the founder to listen or not. I think anyone that puts out one product and is like, this is it. Unless they've won the lottery, they're insane. Again, even we're not done iterating. We're going to keep changing our cam label. To your point, we need to actually start educating better on the functionality of our product. We don't do a good enough job of that right now. So we're working on a new label already two years in. I like to say we've done nine SKUs in two years now. Four of those were still and those are gone now. But the can label has probably had three or four iterations since we launched it one year ago. You have to keep changing totally. So for me, I don't find any discomfort. All it says to me is progress and it shows evolution and that we are listening to our customers, which is a really hard thing to do. I do believe a lot of people don't demo because they're scared of hearing from their consumers what they actually think of their product because it's not fun. That part ain't fun.

Anouck Gotlib [00:40:31]:

I remember when we got discontinued the first time, I was like so there was an embarrassment about it, right? And maybe I was younger also, and I was embarrassed and I was like, oh, no, it's going to ruin the story, it's going to ruin the numbers. And I look back at that and I'm like, what the hell were we thinking? It was the wrong aisle, the wrong shelf, too much stores, the wrong product. It just made zero sense. Our cookies were at the bottom shelf of the cereal aisle because they wanted to make the retailer wanted to make breakfast, like waffles cookies. Yeah, didn't make sense, but I remember it being, like, such an embarrassment. And I look back at it now and I'm like, such a good lesson, right? And I wouldn't be here had I not gone through that. So, yeah, the consumer for sure, you take the consumer feedback, but sometimes it's also about the learnings that you get through it and similar. We actually just discontinued our dessert lines because it wasn't the right thing to do for our company, and we had way too embarrassed. We launched seven flavors at once. It was just not the right thing to do. And it's about saying, okay, that was not the right thing to do, and it's okay.

Tom Shea [00:41:49]:

I think the analogy I would draw at least from, like, I'm also in this founder ecosystem, obviously at a little bit of a different lane. But I remember having to fire our first employees and being so upset with myself, like, you made the wrong decisions. You didn't vet them for nothing. You're playing with people's lives. It emotionally devastated me. But I do think as you mature and you grow, the equation sort of becomes either you make the tough decision that needs to be made and you save the business and create the most amount of jobs for the most amount of people. And, like, this gets a chance to become something that can employ thousands of people, or you can't step up to the plate in those hard decisions, or you didn't follow the data and what it was telling you. And yeah, I don't know. I think you make a really good point. It probably just keeps getting easier and easier and easier. The Pancake cereal launcher nook from for you page to IRL. Can you first describe, I guess, what the viral trend was and then how you're able to bring this product to life?

Anouck Gotlib [00:42:52]:

Yes, definitely. So remember in the pandemic when people were at home and there were, like, a bunch of things going viral? Like, we're baking sourdough bread from scratch?

Tom Shea [00:43:03]:

The Google search trends for how to bake bread were right.

Anouck Gotlib [00:43:08]:

So everyone was at home and baking and cooking and enjoying this extra time that we now have. And so there was this woman, her name is Sydney, and she was making pancakes in the morning, and she had extra batter left, but there wasn't enough batter to make a pancake. So she made, like, tiny, tiny, tiny ones on a griddle. And then she's like, oh, this is so cute. Let me put it in a bowl and eat it as if it's cereal, named it Pancake Cereal, and it went viral on TikTok. So there's 1.7 billion views on TikTok.

Tom Shea [00:43:44]:

How many people are there in the world?

Noah Wunsch [00:43:46]:

Like 8 billion.

Anouck Gotlib [00:43:50]:

Populations of this, I guess. And so many people started doing the trend, like Pancake Cereal, making tiny one with, like, a tiny label, turning them on and making them with colors and really just enjoying pancake as dippy cereal with, like, maple syrup or with milk. And what we saw was people spending a lot of time to make pancakes because everyone was like, love this trend, but took me 2 hours never doing this again in my life. So we pride ourselves, but making things quick and easy and delicious. And Greg, who's our I mean, I love my husband shout out to Greg, but he's so, so good at what he does. Literally, he is the innovator of the brand. He's the visionary entrepreneur, and his passion is products, innovation, product development. He's like, I can do this. I'm going to do this, and we're going to commercialize it. And so we did. And so we revived the trends, and we launched it at Target in February. And it literally went from your for you page FYP to IRL. I feel like that I cannot pull off those.

Noah Wunsch [00:45:07]:

You did great. I believed it. I understood it.

Anouck Gotlib [00:45:10]:

The first time our team was like, FYP IRL. I was like, sure, people are going to get this, but I think I'm super proud of what we've achieved there, because I think you think about innovation. And innovation in our industry mostly is about flavors. Maybe you launch in an adjacent category. That's pretty cool. It's kind of expected, but it's really cool. And what we did was take a trend on TikTok and brought it to life. And I don't think that's been done yet. And it was really amazing to see the feedback it exceeded, honestly, any expectation I had both from industry and the consumers. They were just like I mean, I had, like our accountant sent me a text. He's like his daughter who's, like, 13 year old lose her mind over I saw this on TikTok, and they made it. Really? And oh, my God. And it's like, our account.

Tom Shea [00:46:05]:

I'm sure you get so much earned media too.

Noah Wunsch [00:46:07]:

It's back.

Anouck Gotlib [00:46:10]:

And tastes so freaking good. The reviews blew my mind away. It was just the products just taste phenomena.

Tom Shea [00:46:20]:

How soon after the trend did you start actively thinking of it as a brand, as a product?

Anouck Gotlib [00:46:26]:

So Greg told me, and he was like, I'm going to do it. I'm like, what the hell is he talking about? Right when he saw it, right? And he convinced, I guess, the organization like, let's do it. And in the beginning, I was like, no. And then you start thinking about it. You start designing it, and you start to see that this could actually work. But it really exceeded the expectations we had awesome.

Tom Shea [00:46:54]:

All right, how you guys doing? We're at the next stop.

Noah Wunsch [00:46:58]:

Here we go.

Tom Shea [00:46:59]:

One thing that I think is particularly interesting, I have a co founder, anxiety built Belgian boys along her now husband. And you're solo founder.

Noah Wunsch [00:47:08]:

It's a fact.

Tom Shea [00:47:09]:

And one, I don't know how you do it. I think Max is like, we're so good at this. You can sense when they're dragging, and they need to grab other shoulders and pick them up. But how have you just sort of managed working through building the business on your own? Who do you go to when you need that support?

Noah Wunsch [00:47:29]:

Yeah, it's not for the faint of heart. It's very difficult, but any business is for me, I'm very good at keeping in touch with other founders Anouck, and I text on probably a weekly basis. I would say coffee on monthly.

Tom Shea [00:47:46]:

I literally never get texts.

Noah Wunsch [00:47:47]:

I'm telling you're. Always looking for the money. It's not fine. We can cut it out. Right? Keep it in. You keep it in this podcast. Sandro from Sanzo, who we all in love. Sandro and I are texting constantly. Me and Whitney over at Swoon. Tommy over sound like literally Sandra is a solo founder, so he and I definitely get to lament and fetch all the time. And Katie Wilson, another solo founder over at Bellywelly. Katie's the best. So for me, it's like it's talk to friends and get tips from them. And there have been many a time where I've sat down with a nook for coffee and been like, this is it. I'm done. I'm done. Nook's, like, you're not done yet. And I'm like but I am right. And she's like, no, not yet. And I'm like, God damn it, I guess I'm not done yet. And it's important to check in with each other, because, again, what I say about this being hard is true. It doesn't matter if it's beverage, but it's worse than beverage. But it doesn't matter if it's beverage or snacks or anything. It's really difficult. So especially when I meet a new founder, what I'll tell them is, this is my cell number. If you're just having a bad day, text me, because it happens. And I'm here to tell you I'm probably having a bad day too. But because we both are, we can feel good about that, that it's not just you. You're not alone. And that's key. Just maintaining a network of people who I trust and I can look to for advice as well.

Tom Shea [00:49:23]:

Yeah, we all came from other industries. I mean, I think something that's very clear is there's nothing like this community of people. It's actually like, night and day. I remember weaving my way through corporate America, and as each rung you got up, it got more and more toxic. But everyone the coolest part, and especially in New York, I think specifically, there's so many people that are in this game with us, and everyone's first response is just like, how can I help? Who can I introduce you to? And it's one of their most rewarding and satisfying. Do you have any mentors or people that you have in your core circle that you turn to?

Anouck Gotlib [00:50:00]:

Well, this is one so much what Noah said, it's like such a roller coaster. You want to celebrate with someone on the highs and you need somebody to be like, I get you. And I'm like, yeah, this freaking sucks. And if you're not into VG, you don't get it because it's not like you can call your friends. I mean, you can. And I have amazing friends, but it's like, oh, again with Belgian boys and they support, they love and their biggest cheerleaders. But I talk about investor and tell me something else, right? But your CPG community, they get it. Other mentors, I mean, I have amazing friends in industry. Denise from Partex, she's my bestie lover. And then I'm grateful to have amazing investors. So my biggest role model, I want to say, became our investor. Daniel Lubetsky from Kind. And that's like a pinch me moment.

Tom Shea [00:51:03]:

I met him at Expo, right?

Anouck Gotlib [00:51:05]:

He's like the kindest human being, so smart. His whole team is just really great people and it's someone to look up to and to ask and just have open conversation and what do you think about it? And you can do it without that support system. And I work with my husband, I have that, he's my rock. But I also have my CPG friends. And I really think that with some it became like year one. Like real friendships, right? Not only like, what are you doing and what you're doing tonight? And totally like that.

Tom Shea [00:51:46]:

I remember when we were know, I was new to the CPG scene. It definitely started with an explicit sales agenda. I was like, I'm going to meet brand founders to sell them. And very quickly it became actually just like, these are the people that get what I'm going through. Understand how difficult this is, want to find ways to be helpful. And now we still go to those events, but you won't hear me talking about you should work with us ever. There's nothing like I think the CPG community I think we'd all agree.

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Tom Shea [00:53:06]:
All right, we are getting to stop number three on the route. Some brand intersection questions that I'd love to dive in with you guys. So the first one, I sort of want to talk about the evolution from D to C to retail and how that has changed how you guys operate your respective businesses. So I think start with where your product sold today, plug yourselves and how have you had to sort of just adjust your organization to reflect what is honestly like a fundamentally different operating model.

Noah Wunsch [00:53:42]:

I'm happy to go for it. We've been retail first from the get go period. Like, our pre launch partner was Whole Foods and Foxtrot, and we've been expanding those relationships. Know we're in four regions of Whole Foods now. We're in fairway west side market all over the northeast, the mid atlantic, and I kind of say that we're up and down the east coast and parts of texas now, we opened up the west coast last year, but I think we made the strategic decision this year to really kind of let the gas off there again. It is that mentality of making some of the hard strategic decisions totally so that you're not throwing good money after bad because new york city Is expensive enough. You throw la into the equation. Separate side of the country comes hard to support. It's extremely hard to support, and it's extremely expensive to support when there's so much unrealized opportunity. Even if we just did the Northeast, there's literally tens of millions of dollars to be found in revenue just in the Northeast.

Tom Shea [00:54:39]:

Right.

Noah Wunsch [00:54:39]:

We're expanding that to the entire East Coast plus Texas. So even then, we're a team of four. Like, we're tiny. So it's about being hyper focused. Yeah, man.

Tom Shea [00:54:49]:

Dude, you're a magician. How you do that?

Noah Wunsch [00:54:52]:

I appreciate it. Yeah, we keep it. Like, retail has always been a focus. We have direct consumer on Ruby fun. We have Amazon. We honestly push more people to Amazon than we do our website because the fact is, fish where the fish are, people are on a site with the intent to engage and buy. So I'd rather capture them there than try to pull them to their web experience. Yeah, but that's us.

Tom Shea [00:55:18]:

Yeah.

Anouck Gotlib [00:55:20]:

So we also are retail first. We started the business in 2015 and we, I guess similar. We went from, like, New York Bodegas and we're just with our car in the beginning going around, and we then really brought in retailers specialty. Today we're in mass retail target, Walmart, Costco, Whole Foods. I'm still like, wait, what? How did that happen? We were a team of five before the Pandemic in 2020, and actually that's when we got the FOMO about DTC because we're like, oh, my God, everyone's going to buy online now. And we didn't have any. So we just Bleached a garage and started doing our own DTC orders, greg and I at night, I don't know, thousands of orders in the pandemic. And I say the FOMO because it really was a FOMO. I could see that our consumer wanted to buy us. I could see all this.

Tom Shea [00:56:22]:

It's justified FOMO, right?

Anouck Gotlib [00:56:24]:

There was all this hype about amazing DZ brands, like Magic Spoon, like Gabby's. Amazing. What he's built there is, like, super inspiring. And fast forward, three years later, our consumer just doesn't shop. We actually shut down our own website in January, so literally three months ago. Reason being, if you think about your consumer experience, okay, first of all, we weren't making money with it. Second of all, our consumer, like, think about this. You buy this for it to make sense for me to sell it online, I need to sell, like, a bundle of ten.

Tom Shea [00:56:58]:

Yeah, the shipping.

Anouck Gotlib [00:57:01]:

Yeah, the shipping. But then are you.

Noah Wunsch [00:57:05]:

Cold?

Tom Shea [00:57:06]:

Storage is such a complicated game.

Anouck Gotlib [00:57:08]:

So complicated. But not only that, you get ten of these at home. Where the hell do you put them? Like, it doesn't even fit in your fridge. And so we were like, we're supposed then it get to their door. It was hot. You need to reship complaints. Like, honestly, we weren't doing a favor, not to our consumer, not to our company. And we decided our consumer wants to buy it as an incrementality to the eggs, to the yogurt, to the milk, to the dairy set, where we merchandise in retail. We launched, we pioneering a category refrigerated breakfast. That's the experience that we want to give our consumer. And our consumer was actually having not a such so great experience buying on our website. And we made that decision. Is it the right one? I'll tell you in two or three years.

Tom Shea [00:57:54]:

Right? This next question is sort of an extension, and now you touched on it. And I also want to make sure we talk about the evolution from freezer to fridge. But you guys operate retail first businesses, and I'm curious how you think about supporting so many doors and no, I think you had some good insight when people are like, yeah, I got into whole food nationwide. Sometimes it's not something to be excited about. Sometimes you don't always get that choice. Right. But supporting so many different stores and so many different retailers that have different demographics with different consumers, how do you guys think about supporting so broadly? And I think no, I definitely want to talk about demoing and Anouck. I think what you unlocked with the transition from frozen to fridge is really fascinating. So please, I would love to hear you guys speak to that.

Noah Wunsch [00:58:45]:

I'm making you go first this time. I always go first.

Anouck Gotlib [00:58:48]:

We're mixing it up.

Noah Wunsch [00:58:49]:

We're mixing it up.

Anouck Gotlib [00:58:50]:

Let's mix it up. Let's go. Well, okay, so Greg and I come, and it's our first meeting at a retailer, and we show crepes pancakes, waffles, and they go like this. Is frozen breakfast. And I look at, what the hell is frozen breakfast? Like, I come from Europe, there is no frozen breakfast, right? Think about it. Breakfast, you eat it every single day. Where do you buy breakfast foods in the stores? You buy eggs, you buy milk, you buy yogurt. Americans buy orange juice in the morning. It's all refrigerated, right?

Tom Shea [00:59:21]:

Yeah.

Anouck Gotlib [00:59:22]:

So why do you make people walk all across the store to buy complementary items to that and stock up in your freezer on an item you're going to eat every single day? Literally makes zero sense. So Greg and I were like, we're going to bring it to refrigerated. And people told us, you guys are crazy. No one's ever going to do that. I mean, we've been in business since 2015 and we actually went to frozen breakfast and we were actually doing great there. Buyers were happy. Our velocity was contributing growth to the set. But deep in our gut, we were like, what we can do best at, what we can be best at in the world is making European foods mainstream. And for us, that's not only better product, better ingredient taste, it's also about the experience. It's about how the consumer shops in Europe that's refrigerated. It's about how the consumer know. In America, people walk with their coffee very fast and like, I mean, we're in New York, right? In Europe, we sit down, we have a cookie, we have a coffee with a cookie, we sit down, we chill. Like when we grab coffee and take five minutes, enjoy your day, it's fine. Nothing's going to happen anyway. In 2019, we had the opportunity at Walmart to test the refrigerated breakfast. And we tested in 65 stores. It exceeded any expectations. We matched our Walmart Velocities with Whole Foods frozen velocities, which in our industry, for a young emerging brand is not common. Right? And so from that, we grew Walmart since 2019. So in four years, to close to 1000 doors, we launched at Target, we launched at Whole Foods, we launched at Meyer, we launched at Kroger. So many retailers, we're now releasing case studies about refrigerated breakfast category captaining that and really pioneering the way the consumer will shop. I believe there's going to be lots of innovation in this set that we're creating that breakfast destination in the store. And I'm super excited about having that growth and what it's going to do in the next few years. For all the no's that I got.

Tom Shea [01:01:46]:

How did you get them to take that? Because clearly you're looking at hindsight's 2020. You were right. Clearly not only yeah, it's partially like, yeah, I'm trying to move my brand forward, but also the retailer is trying to move products and get the most.

Anouck Gotlib [01:02:01]:

Amount of sales possible, right? Well, I think sometimes you're trying to invent something, right? And you're like, you're trying to invent something to create brand equity. Like, let me get secondary placement somewhere, and that will bring more revenue. In our case, we were just bringing something that is a proven concept in Europe. That's the way the consumer shops in Europe, and we believe that it's going to work here as well. It really makes sense. It's not a trend. Right. Again, would it work? It could have been a complete flop as well, but we wanted to prove it. And the Velocities, the incrementality, really, that's where we see it works. And to your point, I do remember being in the frozen set, and it was always about, okay, promotion here, demo here. Really, we needed to educate the consumer. And where we're at right now, we're finding that our biggest marketing tactic is just merchandising when we're on the figure.

Tom Shea [01:03:09]:

It out, because the adjacency right.

Anouck Gotlib [01:03:12]:

Our consumer in their basket. You find X strawberry nutella, lucky Charm and Tropicana OJ. And I'm like, Wait, what? That's our consumer. And then when you understand who your consumer is, you really understand what it is that you need to be doing. And for us, that's just putting it on the shelf, making it look pretty in pink, and it comes off the shelf. And I think when you find that sweet spot what works, you just go for it.

Tom Shea [01:03:39]:

Totally. Noah, you're unlike anyone I've ever met in the context of retail support, in that, correct me if wrong, every Ruby knot needs to do demos each.

Noah Wunsch [01:03:53]:

Yeah, we have one in the south right now doing two or three demos a day.

Anouck Gotlib [01:03:58]:

Wow.

Noah Wunsch [01:03:58]:

Yeah.

Tom Shea [01:03:59]:

And so talk about retail support and your strategy. I think it's probably, obviously to support sales, but it's also sips on lips, and it's also just, like, probably learning from your consumer. So just talk about how did you get into that practice, why did you get into that practice? And obviously you've made it part of the culture of the company. So I'd love to just hear you speak about the importance of it to your brand.

Noah Wunsch [01:04:21]:

Yeah. Taking a step back, which is even more important almost, is like, how long has Belgian boys been around?

Anouck Gotlib [01:04:28]:

We started in 2015, so eight years. Eight years. We've learned a lot.

Noah Wunsch [01:04:34]:

Brand penetration takes years. It takes years and years. I think a lot of people like, I remember in 2016, Spindrift was everywhere, and I was like, oh, my God, look at this new brand that just launched this year as a consumer. But Spindrift had been around since, I think, 2008. By that time. I mean, VitaCoco. Coconut water are the same. It hit brand penetration probably in 2011, 2012, where it was everywhere. But both Zico and Vitacococo were started usually around, I think, 2000 or 2001. I think that certainly, myself as a founder getting into the industry, we don't fully understand the time metric that is required for brand penetration, for that pickup rate to create the mentality that a consumer comes in with education on who you are. And the knowledge to know I'm going to buy that thing. So a lot of people I think, are assuming that just by being on shelf people will grab it. And I think that's a fallacy. I don't think that's real. I think that's where a lot of people chase door growth which can be dangerous. And it goes to a nook's point on like endorse where it's like I've got Whole Foods National, I crushed it.

Tom Shea [01:05:48]:

Talked to you in three months during the reset.

Noah Wunsch [01:05:50]:

Well, maybe look again, some people have a fantastic time of it and it is up for the founder to take a step back and be like, how well funded am I? What's my strategy in these locations to make sure that I actually am flying off the shelf. I remember, like, we got Whole Foods northeast, pre launch. That was 50 locations prelaunch in the Northeast. And at first you're like, I got that 50 doors, we good. And then you're like, well only 13 of those doors are in New York City. And you're like, what is Morristown New Jersey like? What is Morristown? What's? West orange. What's? West orange. I don't know anyone in these places. Why are people going to buy my product? So again, my whole mentality is it's not up for you to assume that the consumer knows why they need to buy you. You need to help educate that educate them and explain what we keep challenging ourselves with every single day is how we can create an aura. Because the fact is on a good day, a great demo will sell 100 units and that's normal for us. But if we actually start taking a step back and we say maybe we're doing some bogos on this, maybe someone bought a mixed case, we spend 3 hours to sell 25 customers on our product. That's not a good use of time. So how can we do it better and how can we assure that one of those 25 is going to be compound value for us week over week? And that's always the mental model we're trying to challenge ourselves with when we're doing these demos from here on. It's not easy.

Anouck Gotlib [01:07:20]:

Yeah, I think also to time, yes, it takes time to build a brand. But as the business and the company, it takes time to make mistakes and to understand the still water, right? You did it. You understood something else and you went somewhere else. And you can't do that. You can't assume that the first product you're going to launch is going to be I mean some people have success immediately. But I think most of the story is like years and years and years. We started in 2015, the first refrigerated breakfast I think 2018 at Costco and then 2019 mass retailer. Four or five years into the business. It takes time to get there.

Noah Wunsch [01:08:03]:

The other part and you're in a different stage period. But a lot of the founders at my stage, I'm just like, what's everyone doing? What's everyone doing with their day? Because I'm like, we know the doors we need to go after, and if we're going at them, we know what the review cycles are. Like, they're on a quarterly basis, so you get like, maybe a week and you prep all your stuff, but otherwise, what's everyone doing? That's why I demo all the time, too, where I'm like, I don't know what else I'm supposed to do right now. There's nothing really to do. I need to be in store selling this stuff because otherwise what I'm like, I'm going to send emails that's not going to sell my product.

Tom Shea [01:08:45]:

Right?

Noah Wunsch [01:08:47]:

Those are conversations I keep having with people.

Anouck Gotlib [01:08:48]:

I'm like, what do you do?

Noah Wunsch [01:08:51]:

What if you're doing all day? Because I want to know what I'm not doing.

Anouck Gotlib [01:08:56]:

Confusing. How many demos have you done?

Noah Wunsch [01:08:58]:

Hundreds. They got nuts easily. Hundreds.

Anouck Gotlib [01:09:02]:

I think we should count.

Noah Wunsch [01:09:04]:

I could go on my count. Hundreds is the easy answer. It's definitely hundreds.

Anouck Gotlib [01:09:08]:

I love that.

Tom Shea [01:09:09]:

Okay, quick final question on this. Stop. And I know it's a hard one to keep short, but what's the dream for Belgian boys and Ruby, respectively?

Anouck Gotlib [01:09:22]:

Oh, you can go first on that one.

Noah Wunsch [01:09:23]:

I get to go first. So the dream for Belgian boys, the dream for Ruby, I don't know. And it's a good question, and it's one I probably should have asked myself more of when I started the business.

Tom Shea [01:09:37]:

Very sincerely, I don't know the answer.

Noah Wunsch [01:09:39]:

Yeah, I don't either. And I met with a founder who I really respect, and their business is leaps and bounds ahead of me. I mean, they are the prime example of a beverage company right now in the emerging category. They're amazing. And he told me he was like, we have never thought about acquisition. We don't build with acquisition in mind. I think it's dangerous if you do, it can be. But he was like a the one thing he shared with me, which was really helpful for me in that moment, was like, this is a privilege. Not everyone gets to start their own company. It's a privilege. Remember how lucky you are every day?

Tom Shea [01:10:14]:

Got that mantra tatted.

Noah Wunsch [01:10:16]:

I love that man. It's real. But the other thing was, again, that he doesn't think about business that way, but it's like, we just need to keep doing what we do. He said again, one model is you can grow for acquisition, and that's growth at all costs, right? But you can take a step back and ask yourself, like, do you want to build a business that does 10 million in revenue annually without the mentality of growth? And that 10 million will be profitable? You're going to figure out how to hack 10 million in revenue annually in a profitable way. And that's really exciting to me because, again, at the beginning of the year, the playbook changed. This year, I think we all know going back to the joke of what the hell is going on right now for the macroeconomic environment, the playbook changed. It's not growth at all costs. Every single investor meeting is going to be what's your path to profitability if you're not profitable already? And that's a good question. Like the playbook prior to was burn as much money as you possibly can to get to $50 million in revenue and really show that there's around the corner profitability and maybe you'll get acquired then. And that's not a good business. That's not how a business should be run. So it's an interesting time to take a step back and challenge yourself with that. So to your question, I don't have the answer right now. That's something we're talking about internally.

Anouck Gotlib [01:11:41]:

For me, listen, I feel like I'm going.

Noah Wunsch [01:11:44]:

To burn as much money to get to 50 million revenue.

Tom Shea [01:11:50]:

It's going to be about happiness.

Anouck Gotlib [01:11:54]:

Listen, honestly, I feel really lucky and blessed. I mean, I'm in a position where I get to work with my husband. I get to be surrounded by freaking amazing people. They're so smart. I love my team, I love my advisor. I get to hang out with this guy and I love what I do, right? I read this book from Simon Sinek. Infinite Game. Changed my life and my perception about everything. It's about the concept of in life. There's two games, two different games. There's finite games and infinite games. Finite game. Think about like basketball, soccer. There's two teams, there's maybe many teams. There's a beginning, there's a middle, there's an end. At the end there's one loser. There is one winner, right? And everyone knows the rule. Everyone agrees. That's what it is in business and in life, relationships, there's no winning, right? And I think as business leaders we talk about winning, winning, winning, winning. What does winning mean? You have competitors but you don't know when they get into the game. You have no control. Winning for you might be this, winning for me might be this. So not like at the end. And there are a lot of goals, there's milestones, there's wins along the way. But it's not like at the end someone goes like, here's your trophy, you won, right? And yes, to your point, like the first million dollar, the first EBITDA dollar. That's a good one, right? Let's get there. And then I don't know, acquisition, IPO, but it's not like at the end you won, right? So what is success, right? For me, success is have an amazing journey. I love what I do today. I have no clue how to run a company. Tomorrow stays old, right? I know yesterday days old, right? Tomorrow is a challenge and an opportunity to learn more, to grow, to chill out with you guys in a glass truck in the middle of New York and have an amazing conversation, right? I'm with you and I love that. I love that I can have this. Like, it's part of my life, it's part of my journey. We're sparking joy for our consumer, which, in my opinion is like an amazing thing to do. And we're building this brand that has global how do you say, appeal? Global appeal to it. And, yeah, I think for Belgium, like, Belgian boys will live on. Hopefully that's my dream, for Belgian boys to live on after I'm gone, right? After I'm. This is morbid.

Noah Wunsch [01:14:28]:

No, that's the infinite game, right?

Anouck Gotlib [01:14:29]:

Think about, like, Pepsi celebrated 125 years, right? Those people aren't around, right? Like, the founder of Pepsi is no longer here, but the brand lives on the journey. That's success to me.

Tom Shea [01:14:43]:

Yeah. I think there's a quote I've always loved that one day life is going to flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching. That was always a good mantra to live by.

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Tom Shea [1:16:24]:

So we're at stop number four on today's route. It's a game called the Hot Box, cleverly named after sort of like the hot seat, but it's going to be this or that game. So I'm going to ask you A or B and we'll have a answer first and then Noah, you answer right after her.

Noah Wunsch [01:16:39]:

Cool.

Tom Shea [01:16:40]:

And the goal is to try to do it sort of like quick, so you don't get to think about it too much. Beach house or ski house?

Anouck Gotlib [01:16:45]:

Beach house.

Noah Wunsch [01:16:46]:

Beach house.

Tom Shea [01:16:47]:

Coffee or tea?

Anouck Gotlib [01:16:48]:

Coffee.

Noah Wunsch [01:16:48]:

Coffee.

Anouck Gotlib [01:16:49]:

Oh, my God.

Tom Shea [01:16:49]:

Sunrise or sunset?

Anouck Gotlib [01:16:51]:

Sunset.

Noah Wunsch [01:16:52]:

Sunset.

Tom Shea [01:16:54]:

Or DTC.

Anouck Gotlib [01:16:56]:

Retail.

Noah Wunsch [01:16:58]:

Neat or messy?

Anouck Gotlib [01:17:01]:

Neat.

Noah Wunsch [01:17:02]:

Messy.

Tom Shea [01:17:03]:

Corgi or golden retriever?

Anouck Gotlib [01:17:05]:

Golden.

Noah Wunsch [01:17:08]:

Both. Sorry.

Anouck Gotlib [01:17:09]:

Winter or summer?

Noah Wunsch [01:17:12]:

Summer.

Tom Shea [01:17:13]:

Tennis or golf?

Anouck Gotlib [01:17:14]:

Tennis.

Noah Wunsch [01:17:14]:

Tennis.

Tom Shea [01:17:15]:

Pineapple pizza or candy corn?

Anouck Gotlib [01:17:16]:

I'm European. I'm not eating that.

Noah Wunsch [01:17:18]:

Pineapple pizza.

Tom Shea [01:17:21]:

Live music or DJ?

Anouck Gotlib [01:17:22]:

Live.

Noah Wunsch [01:17:23]:

DJ.

Tom Shea [01:17:24]:

Advertisement or advertisement?

Anouck Gotlib [01:17:26]:

Second, I don't even advertisement.

Tom Shea [01:17:31]:

Live in space or underwater?

Noah Wunsch [01:17:35]:

Live in space. Like up in the brick and up in space underwater.

Tom Shea [01:17:40]:

We got a whole listing has, like.

Noah Wunsch [01:17:42]:

A it's hibiscus water and yes, it's part of space. But look supposed to be my answer. Guys. All right.

Anouck Gotlib [01:17:53]:

I think that's a fun place to live.

Noah Wunsch [01:17:54]:

Okay.

Tom Shea [01:17:54]:

All right, we'll accept that. Fight. One horse sized duck or 1000 duck sized horses?

Noah Wunsch [01:18:01]:

Horse sized duck.

Anouck Gotlib [01:18:02]:

Oh, my God. I don't know. I'm like imagining stuff. I will eat his answer.

Tom Shea [01:18:07]:

Sweet snacks or salty snacks?

Anouck Gotlib [01:18:09]:

Sweet snacks.

Noah Wunsch [01:18:09]:

Sweet snacks.

Tom Shea [01:18:10]:

Call, text or audio notes?

Anouck Gotlib [01:18:13]:

Text.

Noah Wunsch [01:18:13]:

Text.

Tom Shea [01:18:14]:

Reading or writing?

Anouck Gotlib [01:18:15]:

Reading.

Noah Wunsch [01:18:16]:

Reading.

Tom Shea [01:18:17]:

Work remote or work on site?

Noah Wunsch [01:18:20]:

On site.

Anouck Gotlib [01:18:21]:

Both.

Tom Shea [01:18:22]:

Do laundry or do the dishes?

Noah Wunsch [01:18:24]:

Neither.

Anouck Gotlib [01:18:25]:

Neither.

Tom Shea [01:18:27]:

You're supposed to pick one.

Noah Wunsch [01:18:28]:

I'm sorry. Twitter, LinkedIn.

Tom Shea [01:18:30]:

Instagram or TikTok.

Anouck Gotlib [01:18:31]:

LinkedIn.

Noah Wunsch [01:18:32]:

LinkedIn.

Tom Shea [01:18:32]:

Wow, really? Dancing or people watching?

Noah Wunsch [01:18:36]:

People watching.

Anouck Gotlib [01:18:37]:

Dancing.

Tom Shea [01:18:37]:

Yeah, I'm with you. Cocktails or beers?

Anouck Gotlib [01:18:40]:

Cocktails.

Noah Wunsch [01:18:41]:

Jenks.

Tom Shea [01:18:41]:

Feel too hot or feel too cold?

Noah Wunsch [01:18:43]:

Feel too hot.

Tom Shea [01:18:45]:

You get one animal to protect you against a horde of zombies. Gorilla or grizzly bear?

Anouck Gotlib [01:18:52]:

Grizzly bear. Grizzly bear.

Noah Wunsch [01:18:55]:

Give up.

Tom Shea [01:18:56]:

Bread for life or cheese for life?

Noah Wunsch [01:18:57]:

Bread.

Anouck Gotlib [01:18:58]:

Cheese.

Tom Shea [01:18:59]:

Air guitar or air drums?

Noah Wunsch [01:19:03]:

No drums. It's drums for me.

Tom Shea [01:19:04]:

I think it's drums for me too.

Anouck Gotlib [01:19:07]:

Yeah, air drums.

Tom Shea [01:19:08]:

All right, cool. Board game. Board games or video games?

Anouck Gotlib [01:19:11]:

Board games.

Noah Wunsch [01:19:12]:

Board games.

Tom Shea [01:19:12]:

You betting $50 on red or black?

Anouck Gotlib [01:19:15]:

Red.

Noah Wunsch [01:19:17]:

It's red. I'm just wondering about the psychology of that.

Tom Shea [01:19:21]:

Start early or leave late?

Noah Wunsch [01:19:23]:

Start early, start early.

Tom Shea [01:19:26]:

Fiction or nonfiction?

Anouck Gotlib [01:19:29]:

Nonfiction.

Noah Wunsch [01:19:30]:

Both.

Tom Shea [01:19:31]:

Where do you want to travel to next? Europe or Asia?

Anouck Gotlib [01:19:33]:

Asia.

Noah Wunsch [01:19:35]:

I'm in Asia. Yeah, but Jamaica. Jamaica next week.

Tom Shea [01:19:38]:

Rich and famous or rich and anonymous?

Noah Wunsch [01:19:41]:

Rich and anonymous.

Tom Shea [01:19:43]:

Playlist or podcasts?

Anouck Gotlib [01:19:45]:

Podcast.

Noah Wunsch [01:19:46]:

Both. I know I'm supposed to pick one, but I'm just being honest.

Tom Shea [01:19:49]:

Cardio or weight training?

Anouck Gotlib [01:19:51]:

Neither.

Noah Wunsch [01:19:53]:

Cardio.

Tom Shea [01:19:54]:

Pancakes or waffles?

Noah Wunsch [01:19:56]:

I played the fifth Belgian voice. There you.

Tom Shea [01:20:00]:

Here we go. Speak to animals or speak ten languages?

Anouck Gotlib [01:20:03]:

Ten languages.

Noah Wunsch [01:20:06]:

But it'd be so great to talk to my dog Indy. I'm just like, dude, those pigeons probably ten languages.

Tom Shea [01:20:11]:

Pigeons out there.

Noah Wunsch [01:20:12]:

Ten languages. Ten languages.

Tom Shea [01:20:14]:

Netflix or YouTube?

Noah Wunsch [01:20:15]:

Netflix.

Tom Shea [01:20:17]:

Telepathy or teleportation?

Anouck Gotlib [01:20:20]:

Teleportation.

Tom Shea [01:20:22]:

Trucks or billboards? Don't fuck trucks.

Noah Wunsch [01:20:25]:

Trucks for sure.

Anouck Gotlib [01:20:25]:

Trucks for the week.

Tom Shea [01:20:26]:

All right. Receive. Good news or bad news first?

Anouck Gotlib [01:20:29]:

Bad news.

Noah Wunsch [01:20:30]:

Oh, first? Yeah, the bad news first.

Tom Shea [01:20:33]:

All right, well, the bad news is we are at our final stop.

Noah Wunsch [01:20:37]:

Nice segue.

Tom Shea [01:20:41]:

But guys, honestly, it means a lot. Thanks for joining me today. Want to give you guys a chance to plug yourselves. So for people who are listening, where can they find Ruby? Where can they find Belgian boys? Where can they follow up with you guys, learn more about you guys, and then we'll wrap.

Noah Wunsch [01:20:55]:

I love it. Ruby at Ruby for fun on Instagram. We're for sale at Whole Foods, Central Market, Fairway, West Side Market, all over the East Coast. Earth Fair. Mom's, organic. But if you're just looking for something quick, we're at Amazon and direct consumer.

Anouck Gotlib [01:21:10]:

Ruby, UN and Belgian Boys is available at Target, Walmart, Whole Foods. Meyer, you need to brag about it. Well, I can, and you can reach me on LinkedIn. And thank you so much. This was awesome. This was great, and it was so fun. I'm so happy to be with this guy.

Tom Shea [01:21:33]:

All right, well, let's go check out some of those places.

Anouck Gotlib [01:21:36]:

Let's go.